|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |
Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
502
|
Posted - 2014.02.02 17:14:00 -
[1] - Quote
This fix has been greeted with muted enthusiasm. I am disappointed. The Nestor is clearly not a valuable ship.
The market in them will still be broken. It's just that now a few mission runners will have one to sell at a firesale price every now and then. It has been mentioned by others previously in this thread that they are akin to rattlesnakes in terms of desirability. I agree with that, and have openly said this in the Nestor thread prior to release.
Reduction (or a floating) LP conversion rate is the only solution unless you want to improve the Nestor (you don't, but we'd like you to).
Stratios and Astero are worth the money right now. They didn't need fixing. However, the price drop will be welcomed by consumers of them like me.
Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
|
Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
504
|
Posted - 2014.02.04 00:54:00 -
[2] - Quote
Silvetica Dian wrote:The Djego wrote:A pretty pointless change. There isn't even a reason to discuss power levels vs price when it comes to the nestor. What the ship really needs is a real concept instead of throwing a bunch of bonuses on the hull and hoping it will be useful for anything. The concept is just plain bad and should be redone with a real goal in mind, What you and all the people parroting this same line do not see is that half the bonuses are just for flavour and "lore" It is an armour tanked RR drone boat. It is tankier and much better at RR than a domi whilst applying dps not as well as a domi. If you can't think of ways to make this awesome then i pity you. The ONLY reason people aren't using it is the cost. If it were 7-800 mill i promise you would be seeing these things flying around. (not solo anything though as they clearly suck as solo.) no one will use the hacking bonuses. Almost no one will use the scanning bonuses. They are just a fun bonus for flavour and if they were removed then nothing would replace them as the ship has plenty of bonuses without them.
Would we really see these being used at 700-800m each? I just can't see it happening at that price. Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
|
Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
504
|
Posted - 2014.02.05 17:59:00 -
[3] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Having ships come from drone sites with out any faction mods is kind of a kick in the nuts. Don't even care about drone deadspace mods, those would be kind of out of place because of all the other deadspace mods fill the niche for tanking and propulsion.
Having drones drop sisters of eve ship lottery tickets is just pathetic. The storyline has been abandoned in order to avoid doing the right thing - cheapen or improve the Nestor. Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
|
Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
520
|
Posted - 2014.02.10 09:24:00 -
[4] - Quote
CCP Rise,
Since you claim to listen to player feedback, I am going to assume you are listening to the feedback above.
Dropping Nestor tokens in drone sites will not improve the Nestor, which is an undesirable ship.
Please do not make the mistake of introducing this new, flawed way of generating Nestors.
Because when you (or your successor) finally fix the Nestor, you will have to then consider undoing the drone drop. Of course this will not be done, and we will have unnecessary complexity feeding into the market price of these ships.
Your best solution right now is to reduce the LP cost. Once you have reworked the ship and it is actually desirable, the price can be increased. If the ship is desirable, the price increase can be quite steep since players are always willing to pay a large premium for incremental improvements in performance.
Please respond thoughtfully. It will give us all a little more confidence in you.
/MC Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
|
Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
524
|
Posted - 2014.02.11 12:59:00 -
[5] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Mournful Conciousness wrote:Finally fix the Nestor IMO the best way to fix the Nestor is; Make the Astero a Destroyer, buff its HP a bit and give it a unique bonus of 20% drone damage and HP, leave the rest as is. Make the Stratios a Battlecruiser, buff its HP a bit and give it back its 5th drone, leave the rest as is. Have the Sisters of EVE offer a formal apology for the Nestor and decommission it, compensate the recall with a couple Stratios and Asteros.
I almost fully agree, except for the part about changing the astero or stratios, both of which I have found to be astonishingly good pvp ships.
The astero in particular has shown itself able to get and hold point in the face of withering fire and then crucially, get away as the fight escalates.
In my view both the astero and stratios are very much worth the money since their survival chances are good.
The dev team did a very good job there.
The Nestor of course, sucks a fat one. We all knew that. Rise knew that too, but I think by the time the request for feedback was made, internal hubris had already taken hold.
+1 for "Scrap the Nestor, start again"
Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
|
Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
529
|
Posted - 2014.02.12 15:21:00 -
[6] - Quote
I thought people in this thread ought to me made aware of the very welcome comment by Rise in the old thread.
In response this this post: comparing the noctis with logi and carriers
Rise wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:This is a pretty great analysis. I'll have a look at getting some tweaks in to address some of the issues you raise.
Thanks for a really well-articulated argument, I'll update everyone if we can commit to any changes in the near future.
here
Which I think we must all agree is a most welcome first positive step in the direction of making the Nestor a desirable asset.
Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
|
Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
529
|
Posted - 2014.02.12 16:38:00 -
[7] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:I don't see why a player has to spell things out to the developer before they can admit there is a problem with the nestor... Didn't Rise know the ship had bad cap regeneration and scan res when they made the ship?!
I think we can forgive Rise for this one since at the time he was distracted by debilitating effects sunshine and pretty girls on the beach in some far-off foreign hellhole.
I for one think he has a really tough time of it and can only applaud his fortitude in coming through this difficult time.
I imagine he is relieved to be back doing what he loves - raising the blood pressure of Eve players.
Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
|
Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
552
|
Posted - 2014.02.13 16:35:00 -
[8] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote:Mournful Conciousness wrote:Rek Seven wrote:I don't see why a player has to spell things out to the developer before they can admit there is a problem with the nestor... Didn't Rise know the ship had bad cap regeneration and scan res when they made the ship?! I think we can forgive Rise for this one since at the time he was distracted by debilitating effects sunshine and pretty girls on the beach in some far-off foreign hellhole. I for one think he has a really tough time of it and can only applaud his fortitude in coming through this difficult time. I imagine he is relieved to be back doing what he loves - raising the blood pressure of Eve players. Let's cut them a little slack here, It must be really hard to try to balance any new ship when there are so many divergent opinions, and no matter what path is trodden, people will call out that , logistic/lasers/drones/battleships etc etc are over/underpowered according to our play styles and opinions... And do. It is understandable that any new ship can become "vanilla" or underwhelming as a counter to this pressure, particularly after some of the stress they must have encountered after the previous ships. There have been some excellent comments in this thread, regarding what it would take to improve the logistics role of this ship, and I was very pleased to see CCP rise welcomed one particularly well thought out reply, and was looking to incorporate some of these points. I would love to see things like the mini ship hanger and other points of interest visible in the original artwork incorporated, but of greater importance,I would also like to see the ability to move around systems while retaining cloak, Balanced by an inability to utilise weapons or launch drones or to be locked for 20 seconds after de-cloaking. Sort of a shortened, enforced, mini gate cloak effect. Visible but not yet fully returned to real space, with all the consequences for both sides. (Sisters engineers make a Breakthrough in "Ring Displacement" cloaking technology, allowing cloaked warping, But due to the size of the vessel, It has difficulties returning to real space.) This would solve a serious issue with the Nestor users have, with utilising the ship in wormholes, a role it is otherwise, ideally suited for, and currently a near fatal flaw preventing it's adoption. It is important to note that A surprise cloak ambush would then NOT be possible. Eliminating A major concern some have with a cloaky battleship. This would then also allow fast lock speeds to be implemented , which is invaluable for Logistics, without unbalancing things. This ship has the ability to be exceptionally useful, and although it is understandable to "play it safe" with design, if we can move away from that, It could be a real asset to the game.
I agree with your sentiment on the whole. Treating people positively will generally yield better results. However facts are facts:
1. Rise did go off on a CCP jolly in the middle of the design cycle of the Nestor so it would have been improbable that he could effect any design changes even if he wanted to. My feeling is that this has certainly contributed to the lacklustre design we have today.
2. Rise specifically denounced, and continues to denounce the very good suggestions made by experienced and balanced players in this forum on a suitable direction for the Nestor, e.g.:
2.a: Refitting bay as befits its support role narrative
2.b: covert cloak ability, as befits its 'cloaking ring' technology, evolved from the advances that allowed the Astero and Stratios to be born.
3. Rise has not ever, so far as I have observed, admitted that any design decision he took has been anything other than superb. I believe this undermines our confidence in his future decisions, as is implies an unwillingness to be completely objective.
The main reason cited by Rise for not allowing the Nestor to covert cloak is that it would be OP, without providing any specific reasoning or argument to back up that position.
In fact my analysis of the facts and mechanics of the de-cloak targeting delay and the general sluggishness of the Nestor paint a very different picture - the Nestor would be able to manoeuvre in system without detection, but would not be in a position to surprise-tackle anything smaller than an battleship, which can be tackled overtly in any case.
Remember that the time to lock after de-cloak is the sum of the sensor calibration delay and the lock time. Even if you gimped a covert-capable Nestor with 3 T2 sensor recalibration rigs it still has to wait 3.6 seconds after decloak before it can begin targeting.
The Target cycle takes a further 12 seconds for a cruiser and 9 seconds for a battleship, by which time they can be long gone.
Without the rigs, we're talking 6s + 9 = 15 seconds to lock a battleship. and 18 seconds to lock a cruiser. Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
|
Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
562
|
Posted - 2014.02.15 21:04:00 -
[9] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:The ships is not even a month old, so of course its price is high. Its already "come down" about 600M in 2 weeks. Another couple weeks will probably drop it another 300-400M, when chips go live it will probably drop another 400-500M, where it will sit right in the middle of the pack of other Pirate Faction BS.
Under the current LP conversion rate this cannot happen unless you have very irrational mission runner who is willing to convert his SoE LP into a Nestor for a lower return than he can for scanner probes etc.
Economics 101. Central price controls break markets.
Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
|
Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
565
|
Posted - 2014.02.15 22:05:00 -
[10] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:Mournful Conciousness wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:The ships is not even a month old, so of course its price is high. Its already "come down" about 600M in 2 weeks. Another couple weeks will probably drop it another 300-400M, when chips go live it will probably drop another 400-500M, where it will sit right in the middle of the pack of other Pirate Faction BS.
Under the current LP conversion rate this cannot happen unless you have very irrational mission runner who is willing to convert his SoE LP into a Nestor for a lower return than he can for scanner probes etc. Economics 101. Central price controls break markets. Maybe, maybe not. Only time will tell.
I'm afraid not, unless you can persuade SoE mission runners to irrationally and deliberately reduce their incomes below what they can achieve by producing probe launchers, which is easier.
Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
|
|
Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
581
|
Posted - 2014.02.16 21:05:00 -
[11] - Quote
Blimey! 90 plexes to get a rattlesnake? 90 minutes in a c6 will buy one... Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
|
Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
618
|
Posted - 2014.02.19 09:56:00 -
[12] - Quote
Itago Gemulus wrote:Sgt Ocker wrote:X Gallentius wrote:Smalltimer wrote:The Nestor is a beautiful looking ship without a cause. RR Nestor gang has no place in this game? 20-30 billion isk remote repping battleship gang. Now that would be something I'd like to see. You would have people bat phoning half of new eden just to ***** on the killmails. The dead nestors would make great for killboard stats. So yes RR Nestor gang certainly does have a place 20-30 billion gang isnt so extreme, sure if we are talking about 10-15 ships for that price (2b each) its a nice target, but if its 50 ships (400m each) with a strong spider tank you need to alpha to kill anything. Even with 10-15 ships you more or less need to alpha them to get a kill. These ships can easily get 100-150k EHP before boosts/slaves and tank enough to survive a few max vindies shooting at them along with 7-800 dps
You wouldn't attack an rr Nestor fleet with vindicators. You'd use 50 Dominix or ishtars and alpha them from beyond their attack range.
Nestor will not work in a large fleet.
Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
|
Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
631
|
Posted - 2014.02.21 08:26:00 -
[13] - Quote
Itago Gemulus wrote:Nobody would fly a 10-15man gang with Nestors for 2b each ship, but since this is a thread about new ways to get Nestor we can safely assume the price will get even lower. So cost is not a factor at this time since we have no idea where it will end up In that case, a 10-15man Nestor gang have around 10-17k tank. So in a 15 man gang you can EWAR 5 of them out of the fight and they still tank 10k dps. This would mean that a 15 man gang use atleast 1-2 ships for EWAR and a few logi to get anywhere close to that tank. Leaving 10ish dps ships that have to do more than 10k dps total. With no EWAR or Logi ships you need over 1k dps from each of 15 ships,, and here you would clearly die as you have no chance to tank 15 drone ships with local tank.
I think you'll find 15 tornadoes will alpha a Nestor in pretty much all standard configurations. A 15 man nestor squad would represent a lot of risk to the nestors without a lot more gained over a 15 man Dominix gang.
Particularly since the tornadoes could engage beyond drone control range.
RR spiders are viable for niche applications. For example they would protect w-space ratters against most casual threats.
However a 15-man Nestor squad in 0-sec or lowsec is begging to be engaged by all manner of fleets. Its lack of mobility will ensure its early destruction. Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
|
Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
634
|
Posted - 2014.02.21 12:54:00 -
[14] - Quote
Itago Gemulus wrote:Fleets that are made with the sole purpose of killing Nestors will ofc win a fight, but show me ONE subcap ship that can take on a fleet its own size thats made to kill it.
That surely depends on the size of fleet.
I am sure you know that I am not claiming that this or that is better than nestors, I'm just pointing out that there is a limit to the survivability of a RR gang of anything, and that limit is not dictated by remote repping power - it's actually dictated by EHP.
In the example of artillery tornadoes against the nestor spider:
a) artillery tornadoes in groups of 15 are effective against most ships, not just nestors. b) the Nestors would never get close enough to drop sentries that could hit*. They'd have no choice but to bug out after losing a couple of ships.
* there's a possible scenario in which the nesters all have MJD and awesome fleet piloting skills where they would stand a chance of engaging the tornadoes and forcing them off grid. Do you know 15 pilots you trust to be awesome enough? Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
|
Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
635
|
Posted - 2014.02.21 18:58:00 -
[15] - Quote
my position is that RR is a niche application. I have not argued that a Nestor is useless, merely that it has a limited role which will have to have an impact on desirability, regardless of price.
Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
|
Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
643
|
Posted - 2014.02.21 23:10:00 -
[16] - Quote
Itago Gemulus wrote:Nestor also have a nice range bonus to RR, making it alot better suited than any other batttleship. The fact that people have used RR battleships with 50% of the range seems to indicate that ther is a use for this kind of ship.
Biggest problem with the Nestor ATM is the price, with these chips dropping the price will drop to where its worth using the ship for whatever purpose they buyer see fit
I am keen to understand how 16km rep range is manifestly different to an 8km rep range.
I don't know whether you have tried the Nestor on sisi in a rr gang? I have. Mobility is a real issue even with the extended range.
RR will remain essentially a pve doctrine. Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
|
Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
644
|
Posted - 2014.02.21 23:26:00 -
[17] - Quote
Itago Gemulus wrote:Mournful Conciousness wrote: RR will remain essentially a pve doctrine.
As long as there is a use for it, i dont care where it is. Diffrence between 8 and 16km means that your less likely to be out of rep range of any ship. That people have used RR BS in PvP with good effect before kind of prove that its possible to do even if its hard
Yes, it's possible. Yes, it is done. Yes, it is a limited niche role, which is a shame for a brand new ship that could have been interesting.
As I mentioned, 16km proved to be a problem in the test fights my squad undertook in the Nestor on sisi. In skirmish pvp, it's really hard to keep a fleet in range of 70km logi ships, let alone 16km pretend logi ships.
Try it and see. Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
|
Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
662
|
Posted - 2014.02.24 15:09:00 -
[18] - Quote
Itago Gemulus wrote:So we agree its doable. Therfor the Nestor have a role it fullfill better than any other battleship in the game.
After that point, its all about how the meta changes over time and only time will tell how effective it will be.
Anyway, this is not realy the place to talk about Nestor usage in PvE/PvE but about what these changes may do with what impact these chips dropping wil have on economy and SoE ship usage/price
With respect, I don't think it's possible to discuss what effect the drone chips will have on the Nestor economy without discussing the comparative advantage of a Nestor over anything else.
Let's for argument's sake say that the Nestor drops to the same price as a dominix. Now ask me the question, "do you want 10 dominix or 10 Nestors in your fleet?"
Hmm.
I can make my dominix remote rep well enough, and I can make them push 800dps out to 70km at the same time, with instant alpha (no guns remember). If I do away with the RR, then the domis are doing 1000dps at 70km.
At the extreme edge of performance envelope (where I would certainly choose to deploy them), they will hit very hard indeed at a range at which a Nestor would be relegated to using guns or dropping down to a lower DPS sentry.
I still think I'd take the Dominix (although I agree that the argument could go either way at this price).
So I'm revising my clearing price for Nestors: RR spider fleets: better than a RR tengu, so about 450m Larger Fleets: No better than a dominix, so about 200m Solo brawler: not as good as a rattlesnake, so about 250m
Average: ~300m
Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
|
Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
663
|
Posted - 2014.02.24 16:04:00 -
[19] - Quote
Itago Gemulus wrote:Looking at the role it have spesific bonus for (RR spider fleet), it should be worth 450m, or more than current Rattlesnake prices.
So we have arrived at the conclusion that the ship should be in the 4-500m area, something the current RS prices indicate is well within reason for a pirate BS using drops as its supply (or 4-500isk/lp from Guristas LP store if you like)
I agree with your estimate of a clearing price.
Where we diverge is the subject of whether this is acceptable for a brand new ship. What we're essentially saying is that the dear sisters have invested heavily in brand new tech, committing resources and time with the spectacular result of....
... inventing something that's no better than a ship they can buy from the Guristas, or indeed any other second hand ship merchant.
Why bother?
I really feel that if this ship is to avoid being overlooked as an irrelevant sideshow if should offer something more than this.
This would be good for CCP too. Their marketing folks could say, "Look! A new expansion with new and exciting ships offering abilities not seen before!" without the entire world of social media responding, "rubbish! it's just a crappy armour rattlesnake. Nothing new here."
Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
|
Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
663
|
Posted - 2014.02.24 16:31:00 -
[20] - Quote
Itago Gemulus wrote:Mournful Conciousness wrote:Itago Gemulus wrote:
So we have arrived at the conclusion that the ship should be in the 4-500m area, something the current RS prices indicate is well within reason for a pirate BS using drops as its supply (or 4-500isk/lp from Guristas LP store if you like)
I agree with your estimate of a clearing price. Where we diverge is the subject of whether this is acceptable for a brand new ship. What we're essentially saying is that the dear sisters have invested heavily in brand new tech, committing resources and time with the spectacular result of.... ... inventing something that's no better than a ship they can buy from the Guristas, or indeed any other second hand ship merchant. Why bother? If we follow earlier design goal (to lazy to find and link), the devs are against going for stronger and stronger ships (the WoW method of you like) where you have to buy a new ship for every expansion just to not get stomped. We agree on a spesific role for the ship, and we also agree that the price for it is well within reason when we look at current ships ingame (and chips dropping to get Nestor BPC from) We have no idea how much time/effort/resources SoE spent on this ship, and since im not into RP i have no way to find any resonable number for any of those.
Neither am I advocating power creep.
The Nestor could get a *whole* lot more powerful before coming close to the power brought to bear by a machariel, bhaalgorn or vindicator.
I welcome ships for new roles, and I appreciate that the natural role for the nestor currently is in small RR gangs.
But I have a problem with this. It's such a small niche area, and already handled admirably by many other ships. There are other avenues that could be explored in order to make the Nestor more interesting and more desirable than merely another RR standing-still doctrine.
The covops suggestion I have put forward is one of many ideas to further the ships' desirability and interest. It is by no means the only idea, but I do think it would make the Nestor more interesting than it currently is, without being in any way overpowered, regardless of price.
The competing clone-vat idea would make the Nestor so desirable in w-space that I would happily by them all, so that's probably OP.
The refitting bay idea is another interesting one. The ability to bring along a spare ship (say one cruiser only) in the belly of a Nestor might be very interesting in 0-sec and w-space when you're in a bubble and you need to reship fast to rejoin the fight. This could be *very* useful to small fleets who are away from home, maybe even useful enough to make it worth encumbering the fleet with a couple of battleships.
Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
|
|
Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
671
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 07:46:00 -
[21] - Quote
Iyacia Cyric'ai wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Let's for argument's sake say that the Nestor drops to the same price as a dominix. Now ask me the question, "do you want 10 dominix or 10 Nestors in your fleet?"
Hmm.
10 Nestors obviously considering they will outlast your RR domis. Better tanks, better reps, same drone damage application and similar drone range. Its not even a contest. The only thing the Domi does better is cost less. If ISK isn't an issue then 10 Nestors every day of the week. It's actually not that obvious or that simple. Dominixes have an optimal range and tracking bonus (50% at level 5) and therefore have the potential to out-range the Nestor fleet, not to mention they would apply their DPS better at any range. Dominix also have 7 Low slots compared to the Nestor's 6 and therefore can fit an additional DDA to also outdamage the nestor or just fit more tank. What this means is that in a real PvP scenario where battleships are accompanied by support, the Dominix will fulfil its purpose far better. They can have dedicated RR that is far less vulnerable to damps and ecm in comparison to the Nestor fleet which needs to stay within 15km of each other (which would also make them more vulnerable to bombing runs). The Nestor is in a really bad place and I wish people would stop denying it. A single Nestor is a joke (RR range + battleship mobility make it a questionable solo support ship). A pair of Nestors I can imagine would be pretty decent in a few scenarios but but a fleet of Nestors is outmatched by a fleet of Dominixes. So really this ship fulfils an incredibly small niche that isn't really that sought after in the first place. The price of the Nestor just limits it to station spinning but isn't the core issue most players have with the ship. Issues with the Nestor: 1. RR range limits its use tremendously 2. Laser bonus is a waste (it doesn't even have the powergrid to fit large lasers) 3. Scanning/Hacking bonus is arguably also a waste since who wouldn't use an Astereo or a Stratios instead? So really what we have is a dominix with better RR at the cost of worse damage application AND the potential for either worse damage output or tank.
37.5% after recent changes! but still equivalent to 2 scripted, non stacking omnidirectionals built into the hull.
This guy understands. A domi fleet meeting a Nestor fleet can simply sit beyond the Nestor fleet sentry range and win without any rr - they won't take any damage.
Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
|
Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
685
|
Posted - 2014.02.28 08:50:00 -
[22] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:I expect to rarely (if ever) see the Nestor.
I think the new changes to range plus drone drops will start to pique interest but after that I think you're right. Consider these reactions to differing enemy ships arriving on the scene:
Machariel: Gahh! watch out for that massive uncatchable alpha! We're doomed!
Vindicator: Oh noes! We'll all going to get mauled to death!
Bhaalgorn: Oh well, there goes the carrier...
Guardians: Sigh, we can't kill anything now, better disengage...
Nestor: Yippee! Nice killmail coming up!
I say this because the Nestor still has some logistics flaws:
1. Even with extended rep range it's not going to be difficult to drag ships away from a Nestor pair. 2. limited ability to lock friendlies 3. compared to a logistics cruiser, very squishy (sig radius, enhanced T1 resists) 4. Slow as a slow thing with the extra slow option.
It does have a few advantages: 1. brings offensive capabilites so you get on killmails 2. brings offensive and defensive capabilities to a small gang (provided they don't need to move very much)
I really feel it needs to be able to manoeuvre at least as quickly as a machariel if it is to be strong in a fight. It is after all, half the mass.
Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
|
Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
685
|
Posted - 2014.03.01 10:10:00 -
[23] - Quote
You could give the rattlesnake 2000dps and its still not going to be as useful or popular as the pirate ships with asymmetric warfare bonuses. Machariel : speed + range Bhaalgorn: deadly neuts + unescapable webs Vindicator : web lockdown
rattlesnake needs something else.
Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
|
Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
685
|
Posted - 2014.03.01 17:08:00 -
[24] - Quote
Itago Gemulus wrote: So all in all this change would give RS more dps, would take longer to kill off the drones (keeping your max dps for longer) and potensialy more flights of drones in your hold
Disagree - the 2 big drones would die quicker than 5 smaller ones because:
1. no need to maneuver to new target. 2. No wasted damage overspill. 3. Fewer drones to track and lock.
In addition, the 2 mega-drone idea would mean that the ship could no longer field 5x EC-900, 5x SW-900 and so on.
Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
|
Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
692
|
Posted - 2014.03.18 13:50:00 -
[25] - Quote
My first look at the Jita market data post-patch indicates:
Nestor: average 5 bargains (trades) per day Machariel: average 50 bargains per day Rattlesnake: average 50 bargains per day nightmare: average 30 bargains per day vindicator: average 40 bargains per day bhaalgorn: average 10 bargains per day paladin: average 30 bargains per day vargur: average 30+ bargains per day
These numbers don't seem out of line when correlated with the perceived utility (to me) of the hulls.
I can't say it's looking positive for the Nestor at the moment. It's early yet, but it seems to me that the Nestor needs a rethink sooner than later.
Here are the numbers again with my annotations indicating [my perception of] utility in various fields:
Machariel: average 50 bargains per day (pvp, pve) Rattlesnake: average 50 bargains per day (pvp, bait, pve, capless operations) nightmare: average 30 bargains per day (pvp, pve) vindicator: average 40 bargains per day (pvp, pve at a push) bhaalgorn: average 10 bargains per day (anti-capital pvp, always needs support hence reduced utility) paladin: average 30 bargains per day (pve, bait) vargur: average 30+ bargains per day (pve, bait) Nestor: average 5 bargains (trades) per day (struggling to think of a use...)
Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
|
Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
694
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 17:52:00 -
[26] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Rek Seven wrote:However if it had a cover cloak, i would be willing to pay 1-1.5 billion so that our corporation had some cloaky logi for special situations. Or a Clone Vat Bay for wormhole use.
This would be worth 20 billion isk.
Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
|
|
|
|